‘We’re In the Arresting Journalists Phase of Fascism’
Key quotes from Prof. Jason Stanley’s recent interview with Ali Velshi, where he has the guts to point out that citing judges isn’t going to save America, but maybe the growing scale of protests will
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“Do not quote laws to men with swords.”-Pompey the Great (106-48 BC)
I support Jason Stanley’s substack. I have leaned on him heavily during the last four years, citing him often in my work and frequently interviewing him for my Byline Times column and on my podcast RadPod.
The author of How Fascism Works and Erasing History left his prestigious post at Yale University to work in Canada, at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto, where my friend Marci Shore and her husband Timothy Snyder now continue to do their very important work.
I was relieved when Professor Stanley posted his latest interview with Ali Velshi, because he had the temerity to open his comments with: “I don’t think citing judges is relevant.”
Legal scholars are still writing from the point of view of a former America, when there was still hope that the law could save us from the worst of traitors. That’s simply not the case anymore, and someone had to have the guts to say it, and it may as well be Jason.
Here are some quotes that I felt important to share with you:
Jason Stanley on Velshi: I don’t think citing judges is relevant, because it’s very, very clear what’s happening. One part of this is just the playbook for Putinism, for authoritarianism globally. Another part of it is specifically American. The part that’s global is used to target the journalists — it’s the beginning of a new phase. This is how Putinism started. This is how Putin took over. The journalists were targeted first.
So this is just the playbook. Doesn’t matter what the law says: they’re going to go after the journalists. So this is the beginning (of) going after the press. He’s been going after the press for some time, but now the arrests start. We’re in the arresting journalists phase of fascism.
And the second part is distinctively American. The whole MAGA project is about white supremacy and ethnic cleansing. That’s where we are facing. The beginnings of a mass ethnic cleansing campaign. These are black journalists… Don Lemon, an extremely prominent black journalist. It is no accident that these are black journalists. This is where the analogy to Eastern Europe doesn’t help as much, because this is the project. It is cleansing.
So you target the first journalist. You’re going to target journalists and Toni Morrison said, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. This is this kind of use of the legal system to just weigh down black journalists, to tell black journalists you are going to be really in the trenches if you try to report. This is kind of a very dramatic version of good old US, racism and authoritarianism together.
(The protests are) massive. This is a very broad based movement, and do not let any protest entrepreneurs tell you that one group is running this. No, this is a vast movement of people who don’t want to see their grandkids watch one of their classmates, or classmates parents brutally arrested. They don’t want to see their neighbors hiding.
Let’s be clear, I was raised by a father who was in hiding in Nazi Germany. He spent eight months in hiding. I remember when he told me that he used to lay out his clothing on his bed and then set his alarm clock for 3 am to wake up and quickly put on his clothing.
And in his 20s, he told his mother this, and she said, ‘My grandmother and I taught you to do that when we were hiding. You don’t have to do that any more.’
This is lifelong trauma. I grew up with parents who experienced this, and these are the stories that I grew up with. So Americans recognize this. Ordinary Americans recognize that what their neighbors are going through is generational trauma, and they’re stepping up.
Ali Velshi: There was a turning point in the ‘60s, and it was similar in that there started to be TV images of the brutality that police were using on protesters during the Civil Rights movement. And in that moment, it shifted from being a problem that Black Americans suffered in the south to a problem about America and democracy, and that really helped propel the Civil Rights movement. It feels like we’re seeing something like that again. This isn’t just about rounding up immigrants. This is this is about us and who we would like to be, right?
Jason Stanley: So the difference between the ‘60s and now is, there’s no Cold War now. So America’s reputation is now being openly white supremacist — prominent, loud journalists being arrested by Trump. This is world news.
If you’re looking at newspapers around the world, you will see that this is world news. This is terrible for America’s reputation.
But you know, unlike the Cold War, this regime doesn’t seem to care about America’s reputation. They seem to want our children to be embarrassed… Trump and his cohorts seem to want to see everyone hate the United States worldwide.
Ali Velshi: Tell me about how you’re evaluating the growing (protest) movement.
Jason Stanley: I am seeing growing organization — all sorts of Christians churches are now very involved.
We have to thank America’s Christian community here, Synagogues, Mosques, the faith-based community is involved in defending…immigrants and families. And it’s a learning process, right?
So a lot of people have never been involved in protests and organization before, and they’re learning from each other, and we’re watching this happen in real time, and we can see that other cities are preparing nonviolent civil resistance to protect their neighbors, learning from what the ordinary citizens across the board in Minneapolis are doing — these ordinary Americans from all walks of life.
Many of them have never been involved in protests before, and what you’re going to see is ICE learning from this. And…protesters in other cities who want to protect their neighbors learning from this. I think we’re at, the beginning, or maybe even the beginning of the beginning.
Exhale.—hsc
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